Re: 1984 Larry Bird vs 2020 Lebron James Post #40 » by Leslie Forman » Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:58 am Jiminy Glick wrote: There is no hand-checking out on the perimeter. As a Lebron James fan, I say Bird is also my top ten and there are some solid arguments can be made for Bird better than Lebron, even though I still put Lebron above him. In an interview with Bill Simmons of Grantland, Bird spoke of the perks of playing with either two former MVPs: LeBron James vs. Top NBA Players Ever: Where Does LeBron Rank? He has surpassed early domination numbers set by LeBron, Magic Johnson, and even Michael Jordan. ... and more than a few notable people are rooting for an ending that matches Kobe Bryant vs. LeBron James in the Finals for the first time. Both are all-time greats and i had Larry Bird as 5th overall all-time when the season started but LeBron adding another MVP and Finals MVP to his collection pushed him over Larry. MARK RALSTON/AFP via Getty Images. Foputir. After MJ retired the first time, The Bulls went 55-27 the following season. During a game with the Cleveland Cavaliers on December 15, 2017, LeBron tied Larry Bird with 59 all-time triple-doubles. Larry Bird wants Lance Stephenson back with the Indiana Pacers at the right price. Foputir. this is not even close! After the contest, James paid tribute to Bird’s place among the all-time greats by offering the following. Who is the best, LeBron vs Jordan? Although that may be the last thing he’s concerned about, James only strengthens his case with his latest achievement. NBA. Larry Bird or Lebron James? Larry Bird vs Sam Jones. Will Wyman. Debates between fans of the NBA from different generations is by no means a new phenomenon. Comparing Jordan vs. LeBron: At age 33, James has averaged 27.8 points per game, 9.3 assists, 8.2 rebounds and 56 percent field goal accuracy. Kevin Durant & LeBron James vs … LeBron James: 2004 to 2021. His skill-set is very special, and Gilbert Arenas has noticed it. + $8.00 shipping. This is high praise for LeBron considering it comes from one of the greatest players to ever play in the NBA. Back In 2013, LeBron James Named Michael Jordan, Dr. J, And Larry Bird As The 3 Greatest NBA Players Of All Time. • The year before LeBron James left the Cavaliers in 2010, they were 61-21. vs. LeBron James. 23.8. Larry Bird was a legend. But first, we must set some ground rules. Bird is a better all-around shooter. STEPHEN CURRY PLAYING AS A SMALL FORWARD ON NBA 2K17! Lakers’ LeBron James Proves Former NBA Player Wrong, Moves Above Larry Bird, Magic Johnson in His List Published 03/03/2021, 9:06 AM EST Mar 2, 2021; Los Angeles, California, USA; Los Angeles Lakers forward LeBron James (23) reacts against the … Actually, his nuance is kind of refreshing, even if he appears to prefer hypothetically suiting up with Bryant over James. 10:12. 42:28. LeBron James believes Larry Bird could dominate in 'any era'. Los Angeles Clippers head coach Doc Rivers thinks that 20-year-old Luka Doncic is a combination of James Harden, Larry Bird and LeBron James. LeBron James has been compared to Larry Bird plenty of times, even seen by many in a higher light as the greatest small forward of all-time. February 08, 2012 - Larry Bird Talks Lebron James with Bill Simmons (Lebron James Responds) Bethanie Hoang. LeBron James does not have a perfect record in the NBA but he did get there 10 times. Also, he was in “Space Jam.” Bird and Magic may have saved the NBA in the ‘80s, and Bird … There are some sports arguments that will simply never go away. Larry Bird vs Dennis Johnson. Kind of. Jordan’s original Space Jam cast featured Charles Barkley, Larry Bird, Patrick Ewing, Larry Johnson, and a host of other NBA stars. From George Mikan to LeBron James, a look at how the NBA has evolved over the past 75 years. Reviews: 0. Larry Joe Bird (born December 7, 1956) is an American former professional basketball player, coach and executive in the National Basketball Association (NBA). Boston Celtics (1979-1992) Position. Most of us were either entertained or just perplexed by Lance Stephenson's decision to blow in LeBron James' ear during … LeBron relies on pure athleticism while Larry relied on smarts, positioning, and heart. Or will LeBron overstay his welcome and face the unmitigating taunting from some future star dropping a ton of points on him in the future like the young Larry Bird when he dropped 42 points to 6 vs. Dr J or Kobe when he dropped 42 on Michael Jordan in the first half of a game? Or Tim Duncan. Kind of. The bird had played 879 games in his career until his retirement in 1992. Anthony Davis, LeBron James, and Dennis Schröder combined for 65 points to secure a Game 3 victory for the Lakers. James is a more athletic and at least comparable skill wise in regards to Bird. Teams. LeBron James made triple-double history Tuesday night when he became the first player to post a triple-double against every team in the NBA. All orders are custom made and most ship worldwide within 24 hours. Larry Bird vs. LeBron James Comparison Head-to-head comparison between the NBA stars LeBron James and Larry Bird that includes championships won, honors and awards obtained, regular season and playoffs stats and other data put side by side. In the Previous GOAT debates, we used to talk about Kobe, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Bill Russell, Larry Bird, and LeBron James, who was the closest to surpass MJ. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts greatest nba legends police lineup lebron james, kobe bryant, larry bird, magic johnson, and micha. But I just watched Kawhi fucking Leonard win the NBA Finals MVP. Indiana Fever guard Erica Wheeler recently compared the NBA salaries of Sue Bird with LeBron James and the bonuses both players earned for leading their respective franchises to the championship. LeBron James, in his age 30 season, nearly averaged one as well. Larry Bird. Larry Joe Bird. (Larry Legend, The Hick from French Lick, Kodak, The Great White Hope) . Position: Power Forward and Small Forward ▪ Shoots: Right . 6-9, 220lb (206cm, 99kg) . NBA star LeBron James and WNBA's Sue Bird share a lot of similarities in their respective basketball careers. Both just finished their 17th season in professional basketball and both clinched their career fourth championship this past season. outlookindia.com. Kobe Bryant. Larry Bird would destroy Lebron: kg88222: 78: 3/11 6:33PM: My favorite player is Lebron James. All of Europe knew he was a prodigy and eventually he became a game-changer. "A legend. Larry Bird: 1980 to 1992. I would chose Larry Legend or Kobe to take the last shot. 2 (2006-2007) NBA Rebound Leader. 5:14. It's LeBron James vs. Steph Curry, a dream matchup for the NBA, fans, ... Has there been a bigger two-star Finals since Magic Johnson and Larry Bird … #23 Retired by Chicago Bulls and Miami Heat. It's LeBron James vs. Steph Curry, a dream matchup for the NBA, fans, marketers and all forms of media, including TV, online, print and radio. 60+ Points, Boston Celtics, Larry Bird, Throwback. Some fans think Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all time. 2021-05-01T14:18:47+05:30. The original Facebook post used the numbers to support the narrative that Bird was somehow vastly superior to LeBron. Larry Bird vs Richard Jefferson. Rivers was asked to compare Doncic's playing style before the Clippers vs Mavericks on Tuesday night. Full Show (Andy Dalton, Kevin Durant's return, Larry Bird vs. LeBron James, CeeDee Lamb, LeBron's off-court activism) Skip and Shannon: Undisputed - May 6, 2020 - 1:55:06 -Was it the right move for Dalton to sign an incentive-based deal with the Cowboys? Indiana Fever guard Erica Wheeler recently compared the NBA salaries of Sue Bird with LeBron James and the bonuses both players earned for leading their respective franchises to the championship. by. So let's cut LeBron James a break and level the field a bit. LeBron James dethroned him this year...LeBron is a better defender, playmaker, and scorer...Larry Bird is a better shooter. LeBron has never lost in the first round. Quinn Cook believes LeBron James and Kevin Durant would win in a 2-on-2 game to 16 points against Larry Bird and Magic Johnson. Nicknamed "the Hick from French Lick" and "Larry Legend", Bird is widely regarded as one of the greatest basketball players of all time.Growing up in French Lick, Indiana, he was a local basketball phenom. Foputir. But the King has claimed his way on top of the GOAT debate by winning his fourth championship with three different franchises. Larry Legend was an All-Star 12 times and made the All-NBA First Team nine times. LeBron James and Michael Jordan are two of the greatest basketball players of all time but in two different ways. Larry Bird is one of those people. This post will tell you why. 42:28. HOW TO MAKE LEBRON JAMES ON NBA 2K17! 3X PLAT +38 83: somebody said “he factory reset the pum pum” l.. 42 replies @wild'ish 64: Yo, Didn't realize Warrior was a piece of sh-t. 40 replies @wild'ish +215 58: Kyrie stomps on Cs logo after game. DPS: Dan Patrick talks with NBA Hall of Famer Patrick Ewing about his career, dunking on David Robinson, if he could play with Carmelo Anthony, and whether LeBron James is better than Larry Bird. While LeBron James never competed against Michael Jordan due to the fact that he wasn't drafted until 2003, the younger ball-handler did respond to an ESPN article that claimed James … Lebron James vs Larry Bird SwaggaB0y. Larry Bird is weighing into the whole Kobe Bryant vs. LeBron James debate. LeBron James stats: Lakers star does something only Larry Bird has - Sports Illustrated This one stat demonstrates how dominant LeBron James is in the NBA playoffs. LeBron truly does it all, especially in the playoffs. This one stat demonstrates how dominant LeBron James is in the NBA playoffs. NBA Mike Greenberg reacted to recent comments by Charles Barkley on Get Up! Larry Bird is weighing into the whole Kobe Bryant vs. LeBron James debate. March 12, 1985 – Larry Bird scored a career-high 60 points on 22/36 FGM in an epic performance vs the Atlanta Hawks. Of … Kobe Bryant. Michael Jordan Vs. LeBron James is a never-ending debate. 11/03/2021. By Sourabh Singh. For ages, fans and analysts have engaged in the … Larry Bird. Larry Bird averaged at least 20 PPG, 10 RPG & 5 APG in 5 separate seasons, which is the most in NBA history. “I … Inspired designs on t-shirts, posters, stickers, home decor, and more by independent artists and designers from around the world. Only four buzzer-beaters feels a little beneath Larry Legend, but these were some truly special ones. 24ppg, 10rpg, 6apg and 11 of his 13 playing seasons shooting over 47% – his resume can absolutely confirm that statement as well. With every Indiana Pacers playoff game, NBA fans are treated to the many angry faces of Pacers president Larry Bird. Larry Bird: 24.3 PPG 10 RPG 6.3 APG 1.7 SPG 0.8 BPG 49.6% FG% 37.6 3PT% 88.6 FT% LeBron James: 27.1 PPG 7.3 RPG 7.0 APG 1.6 SPG 0.8 BPG 50.1 FG% 34% … Press J to jump to the feed. James didn't exactly appear upset by it … James collected 25 points, 11 rebounds and 10 assists in the Lakers’ 112-107 victory over the Thunder at Staples Center. The Los Angeles Lakers are hoping to have LeBron James back for Saturday's game against the Indiana Pacers. Grammar-challenged NBA star LeBron James responded on Monday to the shooting a day earlier of Kenosha, Wisconsin black suspect Jacob Blake by delivering a … Michael Jordan’s 51 points vs. Charlotte Hornets in 2001 was his Wizards Career-High NBA Shawn Kemp: “Larry Bird would be James Harden in today’s game.” Bryant won five NBA championships, was an 18-time All-Star, a 15-time member of the All-NBA Team, a 12-time member of the All-Defensive Team, 2008 MVP, and two-time Finals MVP. Actually, his nuance is kind of refreshing, even if he appears to … Kyrie sendiri pernah bekerjasama dengan LeBron untuk membela skuat Cavaliers. BEST SMALL FORWARD BUILD EVER (MyCareer) Huma. Then he came out and scored 43 points by the 3rd quarter and checked himself out." We never got to see LeBron versus Kobe Bryant in the Finals -- LeBron laments that as much as anyone -- but one of the side effects… LEBRON JAMES 2X NBA Champion 2X Finals MVP 4X MVP 9X NBA All-Star Blazers’ Damian Lillard joins LeBron James, Larry Bird with elite points-assists record. Worth noting, Bird only played a 132 more games in his career than LeBron after 10 seasons. (Photos by Jesse D. Garrabrant/Dick Raphael/NBAE via Getty Images) Can you name who had the 2nd-most such seasons? More than just a biography, it relates James' story while also establishing his prominent place in NBA history. February 08, 2012 - Larry Bird Talks Lebron James with Bill Simmons (Lebron James Responds) Bethanie Hoang. Harden reached the milestone by scoring 24 points on Saturday night in the Brooklyn Nets' 100-95 win over the Detroit Pistons. That would be Larry Bird. King James vs. MJ (cont.) In the Previous GOAT debates, we used to talk about Kobe, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Bill Russell, Larry Bird, and LeBron James, who was the closest to surpass MJ. Although Bird was able to average 20/10/7 in those remaining seasons he was suffering a major injury. Can you name who had the 2nd-most such seasons? 5:14. mediaite.com - It’s been 11 years since LeBron James made his infamous “Decision” live on ESPN, announcing plans to leave the Cleveland Cavaliers and join the Miami … LeBron James’ Agent Accuses Bill Simmons of Racist Criticism of NBA Legend: ‘He Wouldn’t Have Said That About Larry Bird’ - … I can’t … NBA Timeline: 1946-47. Baru baru aja ramai dibicarakan netizen, soal pertandingan perdana Cleveland Cavaliers vs Boston Celtics. LeBron James vs Sue Bird salary disparity Despite enjoying similar levels of success in their respective careers, one aspect they widely differ is when it comes to their earnings from the game. Sharpen your social media knives. A video from the 2014 Hall of Fame induction ceremony has been posted by Tye Richardson which caught the eye of Dwyane Wade and LeBron James. 03-21-2018 ... LB all day!!!! But there is one major difference in how they got to those numbers. 2020-21. LARRY BIRD 3X NBA Champion 2X Finals MVP 3X MVP 9X NBA All-Star 9X All-NBA First Team. Free shipping. Larry vs. LeBron: why Bird is better. OAKLAND — LeBron James is a four-time NBA MVP, two-time Finals MVP, is regarded as the best basketball player on the planet, might be the most polarizing player in … Welcome to "The People vs. LeBron James." "I remember as a rookie Larry Bird walked by our bench and said, 'I feel like 43 tonight.' Wiki Points. ... LeBron James helps Lakers hold off Pacers for 122-115 win. KEEP THIS PROJECT ALIVE - Support Via Patreon. Nobody hated LeBron James' breakaway dunk more than Larry Bird. Other fans are on the LeBron James side. Larry Bird vs LeBron James. 98.5 … Larry Bird vs Nikola Jokic. … Video: Larry Bird vs LeBron James debate Larry Bird and LeBron James are quite possibly two of the best in NBA history to have played the small-forward position. The current player usually gets the nod and the older player is forgotten. 0. James collected 25 points, 11 rebounds and 10 assists in the Lakers’ 112-107 victory over the Thunder at Staples Center. 1977-79 Sportscaster Series 74 #74-18 Larry Bird. By CieloZboncak. An attempt to compare King LeBron James with The Great White Hope of Basketball, Larry Bird #2 NBA Championships and Seasons Both James and Bird have three championships each. September 13, 2018 9:58 am. The Milwaukee Bucks hung their hat on … Seller 100% positive. Jordan/James wins 8/10 ... Magic Johnson, and Larry Bird never did any such thing.' Larry Bird vs Michael Jordan - Larry Bird: ESPN SportsCentury Documentary. 0. Dimana sorotan diarahakan pada Kyrie Irving dan LeBron James. LeBron James tied Larry Bird for triple doubles, beats Lonzo Ball in 121-112 Cavaliers win over Lakers Updated Jan 11, 2019; Posted Dec 15, 2017 Cleveland Cavaliers vs… HOW TO MAKE LEBRON JAMES ON NBA 2K17! (Photos by Jesse D. Garrabrant/Dick Raphael/NBAE via Getty Images) Larry Bird averaged at least 20 PPG, 10 RPG & 5 APG in 5 separate seasons, which is the most in NBA history. Dirk was the LeBron James of Germany. “A long time before you can compare me to Larry Bird. Larry Bird. Larry Bird vs DeAndre Jordan. Some fans think Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all time. BEST SMALL FORWARD BUILD EVER (MyCareer) Huma. Follow 5446. The late Kobe Bryant played his entire 20-season career with the Los Angeles Lakers. LeBron James Vs Larry Bird: A Statistical Comparison. LeBron James Vs Larry Bird After 10 Years In The League. The fourth-year pro tied Larry Bird's franchise single-game scoring record with 60 points in Boston's 143-140 overtime victory over the Spurs. Get the latest news, stats and more about LeBron James on RealGM.com 3× NBA All-Star Game MVP ( 1988 , 1996 , 1998 ) 2× NBA Slam Dunk Contest champion ( 1987 - 1988 ) NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team. In 1993 McDonald’s unveiled its famous Larry Bird vs. Michael Jordan “showdown” ad, where the two NBA stars play a high stakes shooting contest for a Big Mac and fries. Stats Perform 2021-05-01T14:16:00+05:30 NBA: LeBron James Returns For Lakers, Jayson Tatum Ties Larry Bird's Record In Celtics Fightback. 0. 10:12. RELATED: “Masked LeBron James” Scored Career-High 61 Points in Disguise. He’s the … 10:00 am. Larry Bird 1990-91 Fleer #8 vs. (Magic Johnson) BGS 9.5 Gem Mint Sub Grades. Polynice picks between Larry Bird and Magic Johnson During an interview with Chris Broussard on In the Zone , NBA veteran Olden Polynice and Broussard were discussing the NBA GOAT. Professor LeBron delivered a history lesson on Larry Bird’s legendary game James also shouted out Doctor J, George Gervin, and Scottie Pippen after notching a historic triple-double. LeBron will need … Michael Jordan Vs. LeBron James is a never-ending debate. Followers. outlookindia.com. Magic and Larry … Each brought his own unique skill-set to the game and the pair will always be remembered as some of the greatest competitors to ever hit the hardwood. Asked via text message if he was bothered by Stephenson blowing in James' ear, Pacers president Larry Bird replied, "Yes I am." Larry Bird is weighing into the whole Kobe Bryant vs. LeBron James debate. ... — LeBron James (@KingJames) April 4, 2021. Jordan could also dominate to lead a team like Bird did, but Jordan never really worried that much about getting his teammates involved in the game. More than 30 years after Magic Johnson and Larry Bird took the NBA to new heights, LeBron James and Steph Curry are on the verge of creating the league's next great superstar rivalry. ADVERTISEMENT . 42:28. Absolutely. LeBron James and Michael Jordan are two of the greatest basketball players of all time but in two different ways. Larry Bird, in his age 30 season, nearly averaged a triple double per 100 possessions. imo, larry bird isnt all that. Info. Greatest NBA legends police lineup - Lebron James ,Kobe Bryant, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, and Micha Zipped Hoodie. It was, unreservedly, a great sports moment. Prepare your snark weapons. LeBron James vs Sue Bird salary disparity Despite enjoying similar levels of success in their respective careers, one aspect they widely differ is when it comes to their earnings from the game. But the King has claimed his way on top of the GOAT debate by winning his fourth championship with three different franchises. James’s decision to defect from Cleveland will always count against him, whereas Bird is still seen as Basketball Jesus in Boston. As they say, Larry Bird’s only weakness in Basketball was that he could not fly; the legend took care of everything else. Filed Under: Larry Bird, Lebron James, NBA, NBA Finals, Sports News LeBron James in 2016, Larry Bird in 1981. Skip Bayless and Shannon Sharpe talk LeBron James and Larry Bird. $43.23. Lebron makes everybody better around him also, but Bird, if need be, would take a game over and win it in the fourth quarter himself, which James has not always been able to do. For a long time Larry Bird has been regarded as the greatest small forward in NBA history, but he may have been, or is about to be surpassed by LeBron James. Over the years, Magic Johnson and Larry Bird have had their differences. The Boston Celtics’ legend has always considered James to be an exceptional talent, so much so that it colored his perception of the teammates that surrounded the King. High quality Larry Bird gifts and merchandise. BEST SMALL FORWARD BUILD EVER (MyCareer) Huma. LeBron James. February 08, 2012 - Larry Bird Talks Lebron James with Bill Simmons (Lebron James Responds) Bethanie Hoang. (00:16)-Could Brooklyn contend if Durant and Kyrie Irving played in the postseason? Bird knows. Filed Under: Larry Bird, Lebron James, NBA, NBA Finals, Sports News LeBron James in 2016, Larry Bird in 1981. More than 30 years after Magic Johnson and Larry Bird took the NBA to new heights, LeBron James and Steph Curry are on the verge of creating the league's next great superstar rivalry. The same was true for Montana when he was in his prime. LeBron James. Former Golden State Warriors and Los Angeles Lakers guard Quinn Cook got Twitter buzzing yesterday when he tweeted: 'Who wins in a game of 2 on 2 to 16?!?! STEPHEN CURRY PLAYING AS A SMALL FORWARD ON NBA 2K17! STEPHEN CURRY PLAYING AS A SMALL FORWARD ON NBA 2K17! Bird did, however, specify a few of his favorites: LeBron James, Kevin Durant, Kawhi Leonard, and “all the Golden State guys.”. Subscribe to Stathead, the set of tools used by the pros, to unearth this and other interesting factoids. Lakers’ LeBron James is one of those who vocally accepts that he is enamored of Larry’s artistry. • It took MJ 7 years to even make it to the NBA Finals. Seller 100% positive. More than just a biography, it relates James' story while also establishing his prominent place in NBA history. The former Washington Wizards guard compared Luka’s game to a mixture of Michael Jordan and Larry Bird. It's the new-millennium version of Magic Johnson versus Larry Bird. bird is a legend so dont get me wrong but lebron is levels above bird. Future_Trunks: 99: 3/12 10:55PM not even sure how to answer your ridiculous questions but lebron would have a significantly better PER than bird if he had the extra 4.5 minutes. $300.00. ... Jordan also lost three times in the first round of the playoffs and was completely owned in his career versus Larry Bird and the Celtics. 10. 2021 … 1980-81 Topps #30 / 143 / 232 Marques Johnson / Larry Bird / Jack Sikma TL. The Hall of Famer played 13 seasons in the NBA and made at least 13 million fans around the world. NBA legend and analyst Reggie Miller puts an end to the age-old Lebron James vs. Michael Jordan GOAT debate. The Bryant vs. Jordan debate endured from Jordan’s last Bulls moment in 1998 until LeBron entered the league in 2003. $318.95. Lebron James is a great player. Forum Posts. Of course, it is not exactly the same as Bird vs. Magic. NEW YORK -- James Harden has passed Larry Bird on the NBA's all-time scoring list and now sits at 34th overall. Ray Allen, who previously teamed with James in Miami, is another veteran on the Cavaliers’ radar. “Obviously, LeBron. There have been only 15 playersto record such a postseason: LeBron, Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Larry Bird, Stephen Curry, Dwyane Wade, Charles Barkley, Clyde Drexler, Tim Duncan, Richard Hamilton, Allen Iverson, Paul Pierce, Isiah Thomas, Russell Westbrook and James Worthy. LeBron has done it eight times (in 14 playoff appearances). Subscribe to Stathead, the set of tools used by the pros, to unearth this and other interesting factoids. Larry Bird was a great basketball player. LeBron James made triple-double history Tuesday night when he became the first player to post a triple-double against every team in the NBA. There’s no question that LeBron James is one of the two best players in the history of the NBA. March 16, 2021. Even though the Cleveland Cavaliers lost the 2018 NBA Finals with a clean sweep, LeBron James once … Cards. Larry Bird vs Joe Johnson. AP file While Larry Bird thinks LeBron James should stay in Cleveland, Magic Johnson wants to see him in New York. #23 Retired by Chicago Bulls and Miami Heat. This is just insane. Seriously a guy named Kawli Leonard just eviscerated LeBron James. Kobe Bryant. Over the years, Magic Johnson and Larry Bird have had their differences. Kobe or LeBron? BEEF VOTE: Larry Bird vs. Bill Laimbeer OR Vince Carter vs. Toronto Will Buikema 4/8/2021. 08-26-15 12:49 PM #53 pinchegringo Showcasing one of professional basketball's best players, this book spotlights the life and career of hardcourt superstar LeBron James. 1987 FLEER BASKETBALL STICKER #4 LARRY BIRD BGS 8 WITH MINT 9 CORNERS $ EDGES *. Larry Bird: ESPN SportsCentury Documentary. Larry Bird Returns to Save The Celtics. It featured legendary coach Nolan Richardson talking about Larry Bird. Will LeBron surpass Jordan?
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